Peter Hook
February 2019 | Carl Marsh
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Photo Credit | Jody Hartley
When you were in New Order, would you say that the financial history was just a catalogue of errors, right up until when the band went bankrupt?
To be honest with you, we have never accounted for how much we lost or earned in New Order but, as Rob Gretton quite rightly said, you can't buy a reputation like this, even if it's for fucking idiocy. The thing is, we were an independent group, and we paid the price for being independent, but it went down in folklore. Factory (Records) is held up as the perfect model for an independent record company. It always makes me laugh because of one thing, you know Jilted John, the Gordon is a moron guy?
[I say "yes" and that I had heard of the character which was created by English comedy actor and musician Graham Fellows, in the 1970s]
Well, he always said that he never understands why Factory was hailed as this great record company as they only really had one job to do, which was to pay their artists, and they couldn't fucking do that! It makes you wonder doesn't it, everybody holds it up as this wonderful model and all "that's the way to do it", but really, it failed at the first fucking hurdle. That's what dreams are made of. The plus side of Factory Records was that Tony didn't interfere with the way the groups made music. I think we all know now, just by the fact to make music; you've got to stand in front of fucking Simon Cowell or a Cheryl Cole. Simon Cowell and Cheryl Cole tell 'you' how to make music. That sums up all that is wrong with modern music, to be honest. Everyone has a different way of looking at it these days. I mean, what would Simon Cowell have said to Ian Brown, Ian Curtis, Shaun Ryder?! What would he have said to Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan? The fucking mind boggles, doesn't it?! It really does.
I guess you could say that it's offensive to music because it's not 'real' music, you've just got someone singing that could be classed as a karaoke singer that get paid well but not well enough?
Peter: I think it goes further than that though, to the validity of what people want. When we started punk, everybody hated it, and we knew it, but we didn't care because they weren't going to stop us. Now, everybody that you see on TV, they all want to be loved. "Please love me, please tell me what I can do to make you love me", or some other little story that will make you love me more! Then Simon Cowell takes all the money. [laughs] I wouldn't like to be in a group now. Let me put it that way.
You're a bass guitar specialist, how do you feel now when you probably can't find a bass guitar in most of the tracks in the top 10 or top 50 or top whatever. Do you know what I mean? There's none.
Peter: Yes, it all written on a machine. It's really odd. There's still a huge history of music that's devoured by youngsters because if you look at an act like Jimmy Hendrix or The Doors, can you name one contemporary group that looks and feels like those two, or even one of them? Name a group that feels like The Doors? That has that loose, Rock and Roll, that nutty mad existence, a group that is like Led Zeppelin. It's just; these kids will never ever live it. When you look at The 1975, god bless them, they are actually a good group musically, but you wouldn't put them in the same ballpark as Led Zeppelin would you, or Deep Purple, or Black Sabbath. It's just changed so much. I think that these kids look at this history, and only marvel in the way that I did. I look at someone like Jim Morrison and see what he achieved. Lou Reed, The Velvet Underground, look at them, Iggy Pop. It's just amazing, and you don't get that anymore. That frankly will never be done again.
I understand that you have an auction that's just started, of lots of your music memorabilia? You're not skint, are you?
Peter: Well, I had a bloody good at it with that fucking court case; let me put it that way. I am still suffering, shall we say. It isn't about that, this auction. It didn't help my wonderful memories of Joy Division, shall we say, to be sued by the other two members of Joy Division, for the same thing that they were doing, it's well documented. If anybody wants to look at the cases that were brought, they can do. It's not an easy process, but they can do that.
It's like a divorce isn't it, you're not going to remember the great holiday you had in Lanzarote. All you remember is her screaming at you and wanting all of your bloody money! It never helps with happy memories, and the thing is, that I've cherished all this stuff for years and years and years. In many ways, I felt like the Count in his castle looking at all these treasures, and nobody else got to see them. It's bizarre. It's a weird thing to do. If you were locked up in a room looking at old shit from when you were 17. You have to be going, "You know what? You need to get fucking out, or you're mad!" [laughs] There is an odd obsession with it. I must admit that having the fracas with the other two did not help me remember everything fondly or want to keep these memories. I just thought that I am playing the music, I played to people who love the music the same way that I do and want to remember the best bit of Joy Division, which is the music being played. Do I actually fucking need all this stuff that's just rotting gracefully in my lock-up? Maybe because of the interest shown by the people, perhaps someone else would like to see it, would like to have it. I don't think it's a bad thing. I've been very kindly donated a lot of stuff, and everything that had been donated, every penny of what is raised, is going to charity. We're supporting three charities, we are supporting Epilepsy, we're supporting Calm, and we're supporting The Christie in Manchester. There's a lot of benefits and a lot of good coming out of it, which is wonderful.
Have you chosen to support epilepsy because of Ian Curtis, or was it some other connection for yourself?
Peter: No, no, the epilepsy is for Ian. This auction, whether you like it or not, Ian is a big player in it. It's funny, I was looking at it in this morning online, and it's something to be proud of [laughs]. Getting all that stuff together, the way that it is and the way that it tells a story and captures the moment and documents some wonderful, wonderful pieces of history. I was right to keep it. It's just whether you keep it forever. I am in my 60s now. I'm certainly not a spring chicken. If there was a museum in Manchester that celebrates music, then I think you could be very well tempted to hand it all over, but there isn't. There's nowhere in Manchester that celebrates Manchester music.
It's a shame. Especially with the massive amount of great bands that have come from Manchester, but there's nothing, there's nothing to celebrate. It's weird, isn't it?
Peter: The only thing that does it is the Hard Rock Cafe, which is insane; it is insane! The thing is, is that you go to Liverpool, you've got four wonderful musical museums to celebrate Liverpool's musical history. And good old Manchester and it's proud Manchester attitude, couldn't give a fuck about it's most significant achievement. It's very odd.
What's the biggest regret you've had over your career if you don't mind me asking?
Peter: I don't have any. I wouldn't change anything particularly. The court cases were the most futile thing we've ever done because the thing is, is that I was reading a quote not long ago actually in the newspaper that said the law and justice are just about all nodding terms. I think that if I'd had read that quote and realised what was going to come, it isn't about what's right or wrong, it's more about money. It was just so frustrating, the legal system. We're just some fat old rock stars arguing about money. Imagine if you were somebody who'd been wronged or suffered injustice or something terrible. Fuck, I don't know how they'd feel dealing with our the legal system. It would be tragic.
It is, our legal system. I feel that the only ones that can make good out of it are all the other lawyers and the barristers in the courts.
Peter: They shouldn't do it to people, it's terrible. You know what though, it isn't actually down to money. What happens is, is there's no respect shown. What I've discovered is that as soon as you get a solicitor, they tell you every single thing you want to hear. The thing you don't realise is the other sides solicitors are doing exactly the same thing and telling them the exact opposite because it's what they want to hear. If the two of you could get together, two sides in a room, call each other for half an hour and then get through that and remember why you started it in the first place, and what values you hold dear in the first place, you'd get over that. All that most musicians are asking for is a bit of respect. That's all that you want but what happens is is that the lawyers go, "You don't want to do that," they'll always go, "You can do it this way. Fuck them." The devil in you goes, "Oh, great. Fuck them, and I don't like him anyway. They've done something to annoy us. Let's carry on!" And you forget, and these people encourage you to forget.
It makes you detest them even more because of what these lawyers put into your head.
Peter: A little bit, but sadly they build on your ego and your personal appearance, and how you're perceived, then it becomes a bit like quicksand. Anyway, you live and learn, and that's it. I'm still living and learning mate [laughs], and I'm still here!
In a few years you might be in a room and even talking to each other again, you never know.
Peter: Woo-hoo! That seems a bit tenuous at the moment, but there you go.
Interviewer: You never know.
Peter: Let's hope; let's hope.
To be honest with you, we have never accounted for how much we lost or earned in New Order but, as Rob Gretton quite rightly said, you can't buy a reputation like this, even if it's for fucking idiocy. The thing is, we were an independent group, and we paid the price for being independent, but it went down in folklore. Factory (Records) is held up as the perfect model for an independent record company. It always makes me laugh because of one thing, you know Jilted John, the Gordon is a moron guy?
[I say "yes" and that I had heard of the character which was created by English comedy actor and musician Graham Fellows, in the 1970s]
Well, he always said that he never understands why Factory was hailed as this great record company as they only really had one job to do, which was to pay their artists, and they couldn't fucking do that! It makes you wonder doesn't it, everybody holds it up as this wonderful model and all "that's the way to do it", but really, it failed at the first fucking hurdle. That's what dreams are made of. The plus side of Factory Records was that Tony didn't interfere with the way the groups made music. I think we all know now, just by the fact to make music; you've got to stand in front of fucking Simon Cowell or a Cheryl Cole. Simon Cowell and Cheryl Cole tell 'you' how to make music. That sums up all that is wrong with modern music, to be honest. Everyone has a different way of looking at it these days. I mean, what would Simon Cowell have said to Ian Brown, Ian Curtis, Shaun Ryder?! What would he have said to Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan? The fucking mind boggles, doesn't it?! It really does.
I guess you could say that it's offensive to music because it's not 'real' music, you've just got someone singing that could be classed as a karaoke singer that get paid well but not well enough?
Peter: I think it goes further than that though, to the validity of what people want. When we started punk, everybody hated it, and we knew it, but we didn't care because they weren't going to stop us. Now, everybody that you see on TV, they all want to be loved. "Please love me, please tell me what I can do to make you love me", or some other little story that will make you love me more! Then Simon Cowell takes all the money. [laughs] I wouldn't like to be in a group now. Let me put it that way.
You're a bass guitar specialist, how do you feel now when you probably can't find a bass guitar in most of the tracks in the top 10 or top 50 or top whatever. Do you know what I mean? There's none.
Peter: Yes, it all written on a machine. It's really odd. There's still a huge history of music that's devoured by youngsters because if you look at an act like Jimmy Hendrix or The Doors, can you name one contemporary group that looks and feels like those two, or even one of them? Name a group that feels like The Doors? That has that loose, Rock and Roll, that nutty mad existence, a group that is like Led Zeppelin. It's just; these kids will never ever live it. When you look at The 1975, god bless them, they are actually a good group musically, but you wouldn't put them in the same ballpark as Led Zeppelin would you, or Deep Purple, or Black Sabbath. It's just changed so much. I think that these kids look at this history, and only marvel in the way that I did. I look at someone like Jim Morrison and see what he achieved. Lou Reed, The Velvet Underground, look at them, Iggy Pop. It's just amazing, and you don't get that anymore. That frankly will never be done again.
I understand that you have an auction that's just started, of lots of your music memorabilia? You're not skint, are you?
Peter: Well, I had a bloody good at it with that fucking court case; let me put it that way. I am still suffering, shall we say. It isn't about that, this auction. It didn't help my wonderful memories of Joy Division, shall we say, to be sued by the other two members of Joy Division, for the same thing that they were doing, it's well documented. If anybody wants to look at the cases that were brought, they can do. It's not an easy process, but they can do that.
It's like a divorce isn't it, you're not going to remember the great holiday you had in Lanzarote. All you remember is her screaming at you and wanting all of your bloody money! It never helps with happy memories, and the thing is, that I've cherished all this stuff for years and years and years. In many ways, I felt like the Count in his castle looking at all these treasures, and nobody else got to see them. It's bizarre. It's a weird thing to do. If you were locked up in a room looking at old shit from when you were 17. You have to be going, "You know what? You need to get fucking out, or you're mad!" [laughs] There is an odd obsession with it. I must admit that having the fracas with the other two did not help me remember everything fondly or want to keep these memories. I just thought that I am playing the music, I played to people who love the music the same way that I do and want to remember the best bit of Joy Division, which is the music being played. Do I actually fucking need all this stuff that's just rotting gracefully in my lock-up? Maybe because of the interest shown by the people, perhaps someone else would like to see it, would like to have it. I don't think it's a bad thing. I've been very kindly donated a lot of stuff, and everything that had been donated, every penny of what is raised, is going to charity. We're supporting three charities, we are supporting Epilepsy, we're supporting Calm, and we're supporting The Christie in Manchester. There's a lot of benefits and a lot of good coming out of it, which is wonderful.
Have you chosen to support epilepsy because of Ian Curtis, or was it some other connection for yourself?
Peter: No, no, the epilepsy is for Ian. This auction, whether you like it or not, Ian is a big player in it. It's funny, I was looking at it in this morning online, and it's something to be proud of [laughs]. Getting all that stuff together, the way that it is and the way that it tells a story and captures the moment and documents some wonderful, wonderful pieces of history. I was right to keep it. It's just whether you keep it forever. I am in my 60s now. I'm certainly not a spring chicken. If there was a museum in Manchester that celebrates music, then I think you could be very well tempted to hand it all over, but there isn't. There's nowhere in Manchester that celebrates Manchester music.
It's a shame. Especially with the massive amount of great bands that have come from Manchester, but there's nothing, there's nothing to celebrate. It's weird, isn't it?
Peter: The only thing that does it is the Hard Rock Cafe, which is insane; it is insane! The thing is, is that you go to Liverpool, you've got four wonderful musical museums to celebrate Liverpool's musical history. And good old Manchester and it's proud Manchester attitude, couldn't give a fuck about it's most significant achievement. It's very odd.
What's the biggest regret you've had over your career if you don't mind me asking?
Peter: I don't have any. I wouldn't change anything particularly. The court cases were the most futile thing we've ever done because the thing is, is that I was reading a quote not long ago actually in the newspaper that said the law and justice are just about all nodding terms. I think that if I'd had read that quote and realised what was going to come, it isn't about what's right or wrong, it's more about money. It was just so frustrating, the legal system. We're just some fat old rock stars arguing about money. Imagine if you were somebody who'd been wronged or suffered injustice or something terrible. Fuck, I don't know how they'd feel dealing with our the legal system. It would be tragic.
It is, our legal system. I feel that the only ones that can make good out of it are all the other lawyers and the barristers in the courts.
Peter: They shouldn't do it to people, it's terrible. You know what though, it isn't actually down to money. What happens is, is there's no respect shown. What I've discovered is that as soon as you get a solicitor, they tell you every single thing you want to hear. The thing you don't realise is the other sides solicitors are doing exactly the same thing and telling them the exact opposite because it's what they want to hear. If the two of you could get together, two sides in a room, call each other for half an hour and then get through that and remember why you started it in the first place, and what values you hold dear in the first place, you'd get over that. All that most musicians are asking for is a bit of respect. That's all that you want but what happens is is that the lawyers go, "You don't want to do that," they'll always go, "You can do it this way. Fuck them." The devil in you goes, "Oh, great. Fuck them, and I don't like him anyway. They've done something to annoy us. Let's carry on!" And you forget, and these people encourage you to forget.
It makes you detest them even more because of what these lawyers put into your head.
Peter: A little bit, but sadly they build on your ego and your personal appearance, and how you're perceived, then it becomes a bit like quicksand. Anyway, you live and learn, and that's it. I'm still living and learning mate [laughs], and I'm still here!
In a few years you might be in a room and even talking to each other again, you never know.
Peter: Woo-hoo! That seems a bit tenuous at the moment, but there you go.
Interviewer: You never know.
Peter: Let's hope; let's hope.